#dev | Logs for 2021-05-23

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[01:17:16] <Fnord666> janrinok I'll be curious to see if you can build a working system. I went through the notes, etc. a couple of years ago but they were way out of date.
[03:32:23] <janrinok> Fnord666, Initially I just want to go through the code (again). I last looked at it many years ago. I want to know if I can build it but as for getting a full working system I'm not too fussed. I haven't used Perl for over 10 years and as I recall there is not much in the way of documentation - or at least not much in the way of documentation that I was once expected to produce.
[03:33:05] <Fnord666> Hi janrinok!
[03:33:12] <janrinok> Fnord666, !!!
[03:33:58] <janrinok> it is 05:30 here but I have just woken up and thought I would have a hot drink before returning to bed. ....but I switched on the computer, which might have been a mistake!
[03:34:01] <Fnord666> You're up early
[03:34:14] <Fnord666> Definitely a mistake
[03:34:47] <janrinok> 24 hours ago there was a good discussion on here and I slept through it - I thought I might just check and see if the same was happening again
[03:35:11] <Fnord666> Enjoy your beverage and get some more sleep
[03:35:11] <janrinok> how are you?
[03:35:23] <janrinok> I'm awake now...!
[03:35:49] <Fnord666> I'm ok. Yourself?
[03:36:38] <Fnord666> I'm a little older and a little slower, but what can you do?
[03:36:55] <janrinok> slowly getting my new life sorted out but it is very early in what looks to be a very long process. Still very emotional, of course, and my body is still stuck in the routine that I had when S was still here.
[03:37:35] <janrinok> there is no reason to be awake this early but it has been my routine for 4 years or so
[03:38:07] <Fnord666> Understandable.
[03:38:31] <janrinok> I've got to keep myself busy and occupied so I thought I would start looking at the code
[03:38:50] <Fnord666> Good luck! =)
[03:39:18] <janrinok> lol - I'm getting the feeling (again) that luck is only one thing that I will need out of many others
[03:39:31] <Fnord666> I started to look at it once before but had a hard time finding where to start.
[03:40:43] <janrinok> at first glance, it looks like most of the code remains untouched/unchanged since it was revamped. I'm trying to find where the most changes have taken place and concentrate on understanding how that works first.
[03:41:19] <janrinok> Fortunately, the templating system is similar to many others that I have used so that eases the workload a little.
[03:41:31] <Fnord666> PERL, if not written with maintenance in mind, can be a but hard to approach as well. There are a lot of idioms that seasoned PERL programmers know and take for granted.
[03:42:03] <Fnord666> s/but/bit/
[03:42:03] <SedBot> <Fnord666> PERL, if not written with maintenance in mind, can be a bit hard to approach as well. There are a lot of idioms that seasoned PERL programmers know and take for granted.
[03:42:26] <janrinok> as I say, I did use it a long time ago but much of the subtleties now escape me.....
[03:42:37] <Fnord666> That sounds like a reasonable approach, assuming that github is in any way representative of the actual code being used.
[03:42:47] <janrinok> My age is working against me here :)
[03:43:07] <Fnord666> Preaching to the choir as they say
[03:43:44] <janrinok> well, they were using a git repos somewhere for all the pushes and pulls, unless there is a hidden repo that I've missed somewhere.
[03:44:22] <janrinok> I _thought_ they were using the SoylentNews repo, but I could be wrong on that.
[03:44:33] <Fnord666> https://github.com is what I've always looked at, but if you look at that repo I would assume the code had been abandoned.
[03:45:29] <janrinok> I'm getting that feeling - so my next question is where is the current code stored, hence beginning my search yesterday on boron before I discovered I had forgotten my kerb password.
[03:46:19] <janrinok> I can get onto boron but need my kerb account resetting but I think our small sysadmin team are a little busy.
[03:47:27] <janrinok> anyway - you probably have better things to do than chat to me so feel free to wander off if you have.
[03:49:50] <Fnord666> Unfortunately TMB handled anything I needed that was kerb related.
[03:52:20] <janrinok> yeah, we sent to have created a one-many critical post with no backup plan.
[03:52:30] <janrinok> s/sent/seem/
[03:52:30] <SedBot> <janrinok> yeah, we seem to have created a one-many critical post with no backup plan.
[03:52:54] <janrinok> s/one-many/one-man/
[03:52:54] <SedBot> <janrinok> yeah, we sent to have created a one-man critical post with no backup plan.
[03:53:50] <janrinok> ah bollocks - you know what I mean
[03:54:43] <Fnord666> yep
[03:55:01] <Fnord666> and nothing documented either.
[03:55:04] <Fnord666> apparently
[03:55:26] <janrinok> we have dug ourselves a big hole and filled it with smelly stuff.
[03:56:07] <janrinok> we all thought that 'somebody else' was doing that
[03:56:28] <Fnord666> That tends to happen over time
[03:56:36] <janrinok> yep
[04:00:23] <Fnord666> At work I rewrote our check-in process to require accompanying documentation and QA test cases
[04:00:57] <janrinok> you mean you did everything in a professional manner etc, as one should?
[04:01:38] <janrinok> the latest pull from the downloaded code is 2020 so I might actually have the latest code but it doesn't seem complete to me
[04:01:39] <Fnord666> Something like that, yes. :)
[04:03:43] <janrinok> ... and the latest merge is 25 May 2020. I think that is probably correct. TMB hadn't done any code updates (other than maybe quick and dirty changes) for quite a while. We had been changing templates etc as much as possible,
[04:05:38] <Fnord666> The templates are on the DB, correct?
[04:06:34] <janrinok> I _think_ so but I haven't got access to the DB to check that belief
[04:08:06] <janrinok> however, changes to templates do not require any recompilation/rebuilds. One of my aims is to see how easy it would be to update to todays libraries etc and update the whole thing. There will be some bugs but most things should work as before.
[04:09:06] <janrinok> then set a new baseline and try to move forward from there. Big task but someone has to at least look at it and decide to try.
[04:12:27] <Fnord666> I agree, that sounds like a good plan.
[04:13:18] <Fnord666> I'm sure there are a lot of vulernabilities, etc. that probably have been addressed that we should pick up
[04:13:33] <janrinok> Not sure that I am the best one for that job - but there are no other takers around.
[04:15:02] <janrinok> we are still using ubuntu 14.04 and are not installing software updates on much of our infrastructure. I know why we made this decision but now it is time to bite the bullet I guess.
[04:21:28] <Fnord666> I believe this is what they refer to as technical debt.
[04:21:58] <janrinok> yep
[04:21:59] <Fnord666> unfortunately not installing updates is a path that you can only follow for so long
[04:22:45] <Fnord666> I don't even know if there is a list of all the PERL modules that need to be installed or a script that will install them to prepare a server to run slashd
[04:23:02] <janrinok> I've found some templates and they are in the git repos and not in the DB
[04:24:49] <Fnord666> I know that there are some "templates" that I can edit from the admin pages so those are probably not in github
[04:25:15] <Fnord666> Although those may not be the templates you are looking for
[04:25:29] * Fnord666 waves had myseriously
[04:25:36] <Fnord666> s/had/hand/
[04:25:36] <SedBot> <Fnord666> waves hand myseriously
[04:25:41] <janrinok> you are making a wild assumption that I know _what_ I am looking for....
[04:25:51] <Fnord666> :)
[04:26:17] <Fnord666> the blind leading the blind?
[04:29:16] <Fnord666> From an admin perspective there are a number of templates that I can edit under the CONFIG "tab". Those may or may not even be related to the templates in the repo
[04:29:32] <Fnord666> oh well.
[04:33:16] <janrinok> looking - thanks for the steer
[04:33:25] <Fnord666> moo?
[04:33:51] <Fnord666> Good luck with your search.
[04:34:25] <janrinok> I get nothing under the CONFIG tab - perhaps it is a permissions thing...
[04:34:45] <Fnord666> It is. You need a fairly high seclevel to see it.
[04:35:00] <janrinok> I'd better speak to Bytram
[04:35:55] <Fnord666> I forgot about that. Bytram had to boost mine so that I could update the Beg-o-Meter which is in that same menu
[04:36:42] <janrinok> yep, I remember. At the same time I asked for the lowest usable seclev for myself as I didn't see any need for anything higher at that time
[04:37:39] <janrinok> but I should be able to do that in my own code dump I suppose, rather than wander about the live system or even dev
[04:39:11] <janrinok> I will also have to install Apache - I am a nginx man myself. I dislike Apache which I find to be overly complicated compared to nginx.
[04:41:11] <Fnord666> I'm the same way. I use nginx for my own stuff
[04:44:20] <Fnord666> much simpler in my mind as well.
[04:52:42] <janrinok> Well, it is now fully daylight and I'm probably going to go back to bed for an hour or two. I enjoyed chatting and appreciate the bits of advice. I'm taking this entire thing at a slow pace as it is not something that any of us are going to rush in to.
[04:53:06] <janrinok> Best wishes to you and yours, possible chat to you later on today.
[05:08:34] <Fnord666> Good to chat with you too as well.
[05:08:52] <Fnord666> Enjoy your day!
[08:19:03] <janrinok> Does anyone know where the virtual box image of our system can now be found? (was at http://vm.soylentnews.org but that is now 404'ing)
[08:19:21] <janrinok> basically, I'm trying to create a complete local copy of our system so that I can start prodding and poking to see how it is structured. I haven't used PERL in over 10 years but I might as well start somewhe
[08:19:44] <janrinok> s/somewhe/somewhere/
[08:19:44] <SedBot> <janrinok> basically, I'm trying to create a complete local copy of our system so that I can start prodding and poking to see how it is structured. I haven't used PERL in over 10 years but I might as well start somewhere
[11:18:03] <Bytram> janrinok: Fnord666: yes, AFAIK the current repo IS: https://github.com
[11:19:47] <Bytram> perl code upgrades on the site were put off for a few months until TMB finished his church remodel... and ended up being underestimated by ~18 months
[11:24:55] <Bytram> templates can be edited live on the system, but *should* have ... real copies ... in the repo. I am aware of ~half dozen changes that probably do not. But all my live changes have large comment blocks documenting my making a change along with my mick and a date/time stamp.
[11:26:30] <Bytram> One of the features of the template system is that we can search for strings in the *live* system. :) So, search on "martyb" (and, just in case "bytram") and all my changes should appear.
[11:30:11] <Bytram> In short, the template system is basically a glorified macro processor. It's actually quite nice!
[11:32:05] <Bytram> janrinok: Fnord666: let me know when you are ready and I'll take care of seclev updgrade =)
[11:33:51] <Bytram> any virtual box image of our site would be years old and horribly out of date. *I* would not use it for anything.
[11:44:14] <janrinok> Bytram, thanks for your input. In no special order: 1. The virtual box image would show how the various system components are hung together. The PERL code does not give any of that information.
[11:45:36] <janrinok> 2. In order to document the _system_ that is the information that I will need. 3. I have used other template systems and this looks very similar to each of those. They all seem to come from the same root source looking at them objectively.
[11:46:28] <janrinok> I cannot find anywhere where it tells a user how to _build_ the system from scratch. I'm sure that the information is somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.
[11:47:53] <janrinok> We are stuck on version 14.04 which is passed support. It is a dislike/hatred/fear of systemd that has kept us in this state of limbo. We can either get over it and upgrade with ubuntu or change to a non-systemd distro - but we have to move forward.
[11:48:06] <janrinok> s/passed/past/
[11:48:06] <SedBot> <janrinok> We are stuck on version 14.04 which is past support. It is a dislike/hatred/fear of systemd that has kept us in this state of limbo. We can either get over it and upgrade with ubuntu or change to a non-systemd distro - but we have to move forward.
[11:49:31] <janrinok> I suspect that is why all the machines are remaining with new software uninstalled. Somebody decided that they had to be as similar as possible so we are stuck with 14.04. Was that what the change to Gentoo was meant to achieve and, if so, why haven't we done it?
[11:52:49] <janrinok> 5. I'm not concerned with local changes to templates. The changes should become official at the next build but will need git pull requests for each one before then.
[11:55:36] <janrinok> 6. The repo on github contains changes up to May 2020 - I don't think that TMB has made any changes since then so the repo is the most accurate thing that we have, although it doesn't include some template changes that are currently on the live system.
[11:57:46] <janrinok> 7. a build doesn't need watching while it is compiling. Start it going and wait until it is finished. Fix the failures, rinse and repeat.
[12:00:44] <janrinok> Looking at my own notes the last PERL that I wrote was in 2007 - I'm not up to speed at the moment but I can understand individual files. I can see what they do - but there is not much documentation to say why they are doing it.
[12:23:13] <Bytram> janrinok: I need to take care of a few things right now, but it is helpful to know that trhe whole is based on MVC (Model - View - Controller) paradigm. If memory serves, there are docs in the repo you downloaded. At the root of you source tree, try: try grep -IR MVC | wc
[12:24:08] <Bytram> if it is not too voluminous, drop the "| wc" and it should point you in the right direction.
[12:24:26] <Bytram> =w MVC
[12:25:23] <Bytram> .op
[12:25:23] -!- mode/#dev [+o Bytram] by Hera
[12:25:28] -!- systemd [systemd!~systemd@pid1] has joined #dev
[12:25:34] <Bytram> .deop
[12:25:34] -!- mode/#dev [-o Bytram] by Hera
[12:25:39] <Bytram> =w MVC
[12:25:40] <systemd> Model–view–controller (usually known as MVC) is a software design pattern commonly used for developing user interfaces that divides the related program - https://en.wikipedia.org–view–controller
[12:26:03] <Bytram> ^^^ I found that very helpful. =)
[12:26:13] <Bytram> gtg; biab
[13:19:58] <FatPhil> janrinok: if avoiding systemd is the issue, then devuan is a rock solid architecture, I've been using it for years, and use it exclusively at work and in the office. It's basically what debian was before it jumped the systemd shark.
[13:21:38] <FatPhil> almost all devuan packages are in fact just debian packages, it's only ones that systemd has touched that are rebuilt without it.
[13:28:10] <janrinok> FatPhil, I know but we still have to rebuild the entire system and there are potential problems regarding doing that as the current system is built against libraries that are well out of date and now unsupported.
[13:28:32] <janrinok> Who knows how easy or difficult that task will be?
[13:30:31] <janrinok> Secondly, I am not a member of the dev or sysadmin teams. They hopefully have far more information somewhere than I can currently find on the system. But if I cannot find it then our wiki and other documentation needs updating to that the information is more accessible. That is the task that I am investigating purely for personal reasons.
[13:31:47] <janrinok> The choice of future distro or system configuration is not one that I will be making.
[13:38:11] <Bytram> ISTR seeing mechanicjay talking about moving everything to a different distro; my recollection was: gentoo (could be mistaken)
[13:38:52] <Bytram> it's sticky hot here -- need to hit the showers!
[13:38:57] <Bytram> biab
[13:39:46] <janrinok> I've already downloaded Gentoo but without the VBox image that is of little use to me.
[13:52:56] <janrinok> Unless I start making another virtual environment from scratch, and then I will not know how closely it resembles what we actually have in use.
[14:38:02] <Bytram> A couple days ago, mechanicjay was chatting with ncommander and made a comment of changing everything over to freebsd -- dunno if that was in jest, serious, or even if it superseded gentoo reference.
[14:56:09] <FatPhil> the various inter-host user-space components should be communicating with each other with high level protocols that haven't changed much in time, and will generally even have different names if the interface has changed significantly - a ubuntu mysql client should be able to talk to a devuan mysql server without even knowing what the remote OS is.
[15:12:47] <Bytram> FatPhil: Like in the (IIRC) ISO model from hardware protocols up through UDP and TCP/IP
[16:07:26] <FatPhil> well, like any sensibly-defined interface!
[16:07:30] <FatPhil> select * from users;
[16:07:53] <janrinok> I'd be happier with an up-to-date FreeBSD rather than an out-of-date and unsupported distro. And FBSD would also get round the systemd debate.
[16:08:39] <FatPhil> devuan's actively supported, that's not a worry, it's as "nerdy" as debian was a decade or more ago.
[16:08:53] <FatPhil> But don't take that as an argument against BSD.
[16:09:19] <FatPhil> If we go BSD, perhaps we could hook boru into assisting with some sysadmin duties, as he's a BSD-er?
[16:09:46] <janrinok> FatPhil, I understand your comments regarding the protocols but I am trying to replicate what we actually have so that I can start to find where we are lacking in documentation, and I can start helping to fill the gaps at a technical level commensurate with the average joe.
[16:10:19] <FatPhil> yup, and the protocols are defined by the applications, not the operating systems.
[16:12:25] <janrinok> we shouldn't have to rely on a single person to recover the system, it should be possible for someone with the appropriate privs to initiate some kind of response in case our own fire brigade are not available.
[16:13:18] <janrinok> I don't want to get ahead of what recovery action we will take in the coming weeks but I would like to do something useful while we wait and see what direction we are going in.
[16:14:38] <FatPhil> any sequence of operations that might need to be done more than once should be a self-documenting script, so that anyone who can obtain the right privs can run it.
[16:15:06] <janrinok> exactly, but that doesn't seem to be easy to find even if it exists at all.
[16:15:58] * janrinok thinks it probably does exist but is too well hidden to be immediately useful.
[16:56:33] <Bytram> Fnord666: FYI you are at seclev = 10000
[16:57:13] <Bytram> janrinok: I'm bumping you up from seclev = 500 to seclev 10000
[16:57:37] <Bytram> done!
[17:57:01] <janrinok> mere sea - as you would say