#dev | Logs for 2014-03-11 - Select a date

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[00:44:20] <naubol> Is this team still preferring pull requests to patches?
[00:44:46] <robind> yes sir
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[01:28:20] <audioguy> hello
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[01:49:35] <NezSez> any action here?
[01:52:41] <paulej72> no most of us are burnt out from the drama that went on today
[02:07:11] <NezSez> lol paulej, I understand
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[15:11:46] <NezSez> hey martyb you code?
[15:12:36] <martyb> NezSez: whatcha got?
[15:13:24] <NezSez> nothing, just trying to get to know who's into what here is all
[15:13:56] <NezSez> I've heard the horror stories about the perl of slashcode and am fixing to dive into it
[15:14:23] <martyb> I'm a bit rusty with some of the new-fangled stuff, but I've coded in probably 20 different languages over the years on at least as many OSs
[15:14:54] <martyb> NezSez: What I think would make a *lot* of sense would be to go through the code and consistify naming of variables and the like.
[15:15:25] <martyb> NezSez: For example, get rid of the hyper-short 4 char var names and make them self-documenting
[15:15:40] <NezSez> ah, me too. C/C++, D, python, perl, various shells, lisp, asp (as in answer set programming not the MS web pages) etc
[15:16:00] <martyb> NezSez: seek to have a one-to-one correspondence between syntax and semantics.... can't grep semantics!
[15:16:15] <martyb> NezSez: nice!...
[15:16:39] <NezSez> martyb: are you familiar with DSL, abstract tree syntax etc?
[15:18:04] <martyb> NezSez: assembly: pdp/8, vax, 6502, IBM/370; basic (many dialects), cobol, pascal, pl/1, lisp, snobol, a dozen shell languages, c, awk, some perl, and probably a bunch of others.
[15:18:19] <martyb> NezSez: DSL? expand acronym please?
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[15:23:03] <NezSez> doh, sry pc locked up
[15:23:08] <martyb> NezSez: welcome back!
[15:23:46] <NezSez> martyb: did you work at a university? Most of the ppl I know with exp in many os's have
[15:23:48] <martyb> NezSez: no prob, happened to me during the first big fracas a few days back; took me nearly a half hour to reboot and return!
[15:24:22] <martyb> NezSez: nope. Just willing to try new stuff, and consulted for many years.
[15:24:30] <NezSez> my expensive ASUS MB seems to have some problems :(
[15:24:50] <martyb> bummer.
[15:25:14] <NezSez> yeah, so much for the OC friendly board grrrr
[15:25:33] * martyb recalls how many times just opening up a box and reseating all the cards and plugs fixed problems.
[15:26:04] <martyb> ASUS is now in Orange County? since when? ;^)
[15:26:09] <NezSez> yeah that is funny, it became the first thing i'd do
[15:26:32] <NezSez> eheheh, if it was in oc, it'd be in jail in no time i'm sure
[15:26:42] <martyb> tat, and make sure there is stable A/C at the plug. UPS for the win!
[15:26:46] <martyb> s/tat/that/
[15:27:31] <NezSez> i'm going thru a book that uses ruby to implement regex from scratch (among other things) at the moment
[15:28:20] <martyb> NezSez: Sounds like using a chainsaw to carve toothpicks
[15:28:29] <NezSez> just because I never bothered to look at ruby before
[15:29:15] <martyb> me neither.
[15:29:47] <NezSez> yes, it's a bit overkill. You use ruby objects to simulate a vm for the language you implement
[15:30:28] <NezSez> generate your own AST etc
[15:31:31] <martyb> hmmm.
[15:31:33] <NezSez> useful to easily elucidate the theory, albeit a bit removed from the actuality of what's going on if you ask me
[15:31:39] <martyb> btw, what does "DSL" stand for?
[15:31:52] <NezSez> oh...Domain Specific Language
[15:32:11] <martyb> k, I was pretty sure it was not digital subscriber line!
[15:32:21] <NezSez> ehehehe
[15:32:34] <martyb> like in using yakk?
[15:33:02] <NezSez> yes they are frequently implemented using flex, yak, bison, lex etc
[15:33:07] <martyb> oops, yacc (and bison, I think)
[15:33:17] <martyb> got it.
[15:33:35] <martyb> that is *FUN* stuff! meta out the wazoo!
[15:33:37] <NezSez> basically you write your own language and parser to solve some specific needs
[15:34:17] <NezSez> oh it sounds all impressive, but it's actually very easy, just really tedious :)
[15:34:29] <NezSez> like coding in asm :)
[15:34:54] <martyb> lol!
[15:34:58] <NezSez> mov %eax the hell away from me!
[15:35:01] <martyb> FSM to the rescue!
[15:35:10] <NezSez> FSM?
[15:35:10] <martyb> and not the noddly one, either.
[15:35:19] <martyb> finite state machine
[15:35:26] <NezSez> oh yeah those noodly appendages
[15:35:43] <martyb> see also: state transition diagram (STD)
[15:35:59] <NezSez> oh, LOL I never use the term FSM anymore (cept when talking to CS undergrads)
[15:36:21] <NezSez> i use DFA and NFA (automata)
[15:37:02] <martyb> NezSez: learned it in school, not used much directly...
[15:37:12] <NezSez> deterministic finite automata and non-deterministic
[15:38:05] <martyb> yup. turing machines and all that. right?
[15:38:28] <NezSez> they are useful for simulating turing machines, and thus whether a given problem is np complete etc. yes all the computability stuff like turing machines
[15:38:52] <FatPhil> just solve it with a regular expression
[15:39:10] <FatPhil> if you can solve sudoku with a regexp, that's good enough for me
[15:39:16] * martyb shudders remembering *that* course... all *theory*, no hands on stuff
[15:39:22] <NezSez> LOL
[15:39:32] <martyb> now you've got two problems...
[15:39:35] <martyb> ;^)
[15:40:12] <NezSez> I have a friend who wrote an ASP (answer set programming) to solve sudokos
[15:41:00] <martyb> neat!
[15:41:00] <NezSez> there are something like 30 ppl in the whole world who have ever even heard of asp ehehehe
[15:41:23] * martyb notes that there are now at least 31
[15:41:33] <NezSez> that same guy was into "brainfuck" and "cow" for awile
[15:41:45] <FatPhil> I was into befunge for a long time
[15:41:50] <NezSez> he's a CS prof FTR
[15:42:05] <FatPhil> I still plan on getting back to creating a befunge/dc hybrid
[15:42:15] <NezSez> don't remember that one....is it funny or just esoteric?
[15:42:17] <FatPhil> 2D languages for the win
[15:43:17] <NezSez> ah, befunge sounds interesting on it's wikipedia page
[15:43:19] <FatPhil> You don't need try/catch, or deeply nested if/elses, or tons of gotos if you've got a 2D language
[15:43:22] <NezSez> how did you get into that?
[15:43:33] <FatPhil> No clue at all.
[15:43:44] <FatPhil> Just found myself on the mailing list one day
[15:43:59] <NezSez> ehehehe
[15:44:28] <FatPhil> I also plan on creating a turing tarpit which consists of nothing apart from swearing and offensive ascii-art.
[15:44:33] <NezSez> oh man a cross between forth and lemmings LOL
[15:45:02] <NezSez> egads, I've only ever had to use forth on openprom (sparc)
[15:45:28] <FatPhil> I think Forth was the 3rd language I learnt. Way too far back for me to remember much at all. ALways had some respect for it.
[15:45:40] <FatPhil> Apart frmo it not being turing complete, that is.
[15:46:15] <NezSez> as far as languages go, one I'd like to look into is Erlang
[15:46:53] <FatPhil> yes, I've never looked at that at all. Being mathematically-oriented, I think I might like it, as it's quite pure
[15:46:56] <NezSez> the idea of monkey patching (to use the ruby term) a production, running system is intriguing
[15:47:30] <NezSez> ah FatP, are you a mathematician by training?
[15:47:37] <FatPhil> In theory I could do that with IdleRPG, as there's an "eval" hook in it
[15:48:25] <FatPhil> I am, a pure one at that. CAn't integrate to save my life!
[15:48:38] <NezSez> i worked in a math dept at a large univ for 10 yrs
[15:49:25] <NezSez> of about 60 faculty, only 4 of them coded in anything but matlab or maple :(
[15:49:42] <FatPhil> ug
[15:50:06] <NezSez> I couldn't believe that more of them weren't into lisp, scheme, etc (any functional languages i mean)
[15:50:37] <FatPhil> LISP's more my thing (in particular Scheme, in particular "t")
[15:50:39] <NezSez> one was into Haskell a bit
[15:51:08] <martyb> recommended reading: http://www.cs.uni.edu
[15:51:12] <NezSez> yeah, that's what I mean, i would expect mathematicians to love functional languages
[15:51:21] <FatPhil> I should like Haskell more than I do. I think it's good in academic papers, but don't like it as the actual language.
[15:51:22] <martyb> it's the blog of a comp sci professor
[15:51:29] <FatPhil> Which is a stupid thing to say, of course.
[15:51:30] <NezSez> it's so natural for that way of thinking ya know
[15:52:30] <NezSez> fatp: nah not stupid, i feel the same way about a few languages
[15:56:25] <FatPhil> I think it's that I'm annoyed at the noise the language adds to make it more useful to the computer and which makes it less readable for the human.
[15:57:46] <FatPhil> That might be why I prefer LISPs, they're readable to both, relatively noise-free
[15:58:11] <FatPhil> The pascal-alike pseudo code that a lot of CompScis use is a f*cking abomination
[15:59:03] <NezSez> I find that functional langs more closely mimic my natural thought patterns
[15:59:38] <NezSez> or perhaps declarative is better
[16:00:42] <NezSez> the idea of passing a function seems natural to me, and made it frustrating when confronted with the limits of procedural langs
[16:00:48] <martyb> for me, I was weaned on sets back when I was 10 years old or so....
[16:01:02] <martyb> I naturally think of set intersections, unions, etc.
[16:01:11] <FatPhil> I'm more functionall possibly too.
[16:01:16] <NezSez> martyb: yeah sets, that's another natural thing
[16:01:55] <martyb> then my upper math classes kept pounding on the "for all x such that x is an element of X, there exists a y, element of Y such that...."
[16:02:19] <martyb> sselect the data, and then define an operation on them.
[16:02:27] <FatPhil> closures and currying good. passing function pointers is lame in comparison.
[16:02:29] <martyb> s/define/perform/
[16:02:54] <NezSez> lol
[16:03:12] <FatPhil> Oh no - you've gone all OO!
[16:03:35] <martyb> Oh Oh!
[16:03:40] <martyb> ;^)
[16:04:13] <martyb> FatPhil: I like curry. Adds some spice to Indian food!
[16:05:57] <FatPhil> Back slightly more on topic for this channel. Perl is a freaking monstrosity.
[16:06:03] <NezSez> LOL
[16:06:05] <FatPhil> However, it's the language I use more than any other
[16:06:32] <FatPhil> convenience, mostly. I wish I could wean myself off it.
[16:06:36] <NezSez> oh sure, have you done the perl OO thing (what is it called parrot, or rokiki something like that)
[16:06:50] <FatPhil> Noo way - avoided that like the plague
[16:06:55] <NezSez> yeah me too
[16:07:11] <FatPhil> Perl 6 is somewhere where I will never go.
[16:07:29] <NezSez> i used to use perl for all the system scripts, but I started to switch to python a few years ago
[16:07:30] <FatPhil> Perl OO's very very fake
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[16:08:05] <NezSez> I just started looking at ruby about two weeks ago, for the heck of it
[16:08:17] <FatPhil> I can't get over the "semantics from whitespace" issue. That's a showstopper.
[16:08:49] <NezSez> LOL yeah that is why I never looked at python for so long
[16:08:58] <FatPhil> Python also doesn't know if it wants to be functional or not.
[16:08:59] <martyb> my problem with perl was it [intentionally!] lacked a one-to-one corespondence between action and grammar; there were a dozen different ways to code any given concept. Made it easy-to-write, but hard-to-understand... line noise at times, yanno?
[16:09:10] <NezSez> i mean heck, let's just go back to punch cards :)
[16:09:16] <martyb> robinld: hi there!
[16:09:25] <FatPhil> It's mostly imperative, and then throws some (map ...)s around
[16:09:30] <martyb> NezSez: btdt.... no delete key. =(
[16:09:56] <martyb> and it didn't support emacs
[16:09:57] <FatPhil> martyb: Perl's so "expressive", that I chose the most-C-like way of doing everything.
[16:10:01] <NezSez> well there is that, so it is an improvement; I stand corrected
[16:10:38] <FatPhil> Unreadable code is useless code.
[16:11:09] <FatPhil> Anyone who codes for job security should be made unemployed sooner rather than later.
[16:11:13] <NezSez> fatp: funny you should mention that. I notice that I tend to go all C like myself; assumed it was just that my roots were there
[16:11:19] <martyb> FatPhil: ^^^^
[16:12:36] <martyb> granted, there are times when I'm doing a quick-and-dirty one-time hack; then it can be useful. BUT, that code later, invariably, gets enshrined in some other thing and lasts forever. :/
[16:12:42] <NezSez> have you ever looked at your own code (non trivial let's say) like two years later and gone "geez why was I thinking *that* way"?
[16:12:59] <FatPhil> Not 2 year. 10 years, yes
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[16:13:31] <martyb> NezSez: Looked back? often! wondered why? sometimes, but I write copious comments, and learn how to write better ones that way! ;^)
[16:13:35] <FatPhil> For example, I dived straight back into IdleRPG, which I last looked at 2 years ago, and it was as if I'd never put it down.
[16:13:57] <FatPhil> If you need comments, your code isn't clear enough!
[16:14:04] <FatPhil> Comments can deceive.
[16:14:08] <NezSez> <-- not familiar with idlerpg
[16:14:24] <FatPhil> #irpg
[16:14:39] <NezSez> I write comments for the next guy that has to maintain
[16:14:58] <FatPhil> http://fatphil.org
[16:15:31] <FatPhil> Comments are useful for "why
[16:15:37] <FatPhil> ", but are bad for "what"
[16:15:46] <FatPhil> the code should already say what it's doing
[16:17:20] <martyb> FatPhil: I write comments to state the "goal" or "intent"; and only when necessary, the how (like line-noise look-alike code; which is required for performance optimization)
[16:17:21] <NezSez> usually my comments explain why I used a particular technique due to a bug in some other sys call or program
[16:18:19] <martyb> in retrospect, mine are along the lines of a proof.. i'm given foo, the goal is bar, these are the steps to get there from here.
[16:20:08] <NezSez> brb...coffee run!
[16:27:59] <NezSez> have either of you looked much at the slashcode base?
[16:33:35] <martyb> hey all, need to check out for a bit. later!
[16:33:41] <drcoolbp> later sir
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